Thank you very much for taking the time! I really appreciate all the info!!! I'll keep this thread alive, to see if anyone esle has any input. From what I've read, there are features in VB that you won't find in C. Many IT departments will utilize which ever skill you possess. I'm reading a good instructional book on C as well, and I'm not really seeing any advantages of it over VB. Once you get good at VB, you can always start to dabble with C. It should be noted first of all that the only technical difference between C and VB.
NET is syntax. In other words if you write an application with either C or VB. NET it would be compiled into the exact same application. One might say that C and VB. NET are the same language because the heart of both languages is the. NET are simply two flavors of the same language. As far as ease of use goes, both languages have their pros and cons.
For previous VB6 users, VB. NET would be a gentler transition. This however I believe is the primary reason for VB. NETs existence. It is my opinion that the C syntax is more elegant and concise and is part of the reason I chose it. A more important question above and beyond personal preference is that of marketability. In this case the market clearly favors C and there are more opportunities subject to region of course for a career and advancement.
As an employer of developers we are pretty much language agnostic when looking at resumes. What we are not happy to see is VB. The issue is not with the language per se but with the culture surrounding it.
VB is so often the bastion of developers who never updated their skills or colleges with failing programs and professors who aren't following the industry that it is a strong indicator of aging skills and a lack of motivation. If you look at the industry ten years ago VB was a major market force and learning it had a lot of value. You're done. It is generally considered the amateur language used by junior developers interested more in putting buttons on forms than on writing algorithms many college classes taught NOTHING in programming with VB other than putting buttons on forms!!
NET is a powerful framework, as Tony said, with almost all the power of C since they both call the. NET framework underneath but VB programmers make less and are respected less in the industry and I see no reason why this trend will not only continue but accelerate.
Keep in mind that knowing C means that you can pick up VB easily should you take a VB job but you have the advantage of being a C developer. Picking up C is also easy if you know VB. NET but you will carry the stigma unnecessarily. In ten years from now, C will still be a very common language. But already five years ago many shops were wondering why Microsoft was even bringing out a new version of VB. It's time passed and it's last real moment in the limelight was When C. NET released, the nails were in VB's coffin.
Microsoft had moved on to a more modern and developer friendly language. As an admin Database or Network PowerShell has become the latest scripting language of choice. It is freely downloadable from MS. It is a scripting enviornment built on top of the.
Net platform. You can build commandlets in VB. Net or C to extend the reach of your scripts so a background in either of these would also be helpful. The need for PowerShell skills is only going to grow so highly recommend this. Campbell Technology Consulting is an IT service provider.
As an aside from the original topic Something that is so simple and now obvious that can save serious headache. Thank you for the great idea!!! I would have to say go with C also. We where then taught VB for a quarter just to see how easy it to make a gui in a language that speciallized in it.
But now that there is C and the whole. Visual Basic. NET framework, which means that it has full access to the. NET libraries. It is a very productive tool for rapid creation of a wide range of Web, Windows, Office, and Mobile applications that have been built on the.
NET framework. The language was designed in such a way that it is easy to understand to both novice and advanced programmers. Since VB. NET relies on the. NET framework, programs written in the language run with much reliability and scalability.
You are learning VB. I've been writing vb for about a decade now and I'm still learning VB. But we are in different places in our learning and I don't believe you've had time to fully embrace the fundamentals in order to really critique vb.
You're questions here have been at a pretty basic level as far as architecture and practice is concerned. There have been questions on Buffering both single and double, etc, etc, etc. There is a lot that your post leaves in the question.
Indeed I have had made an implicit assumption that this is the only procedure which I would have been able to use the. But the same code only "translated" increased the speed twise!
I re-emphesize on "translated" because I didn't make any modification to the code. And if you argue there is better way of writtin the code in VB I will tell you that I have optomised the code in a way that most functions could not be stireped down further not in bluck of code but rather the processes required.
I challenge you to optomise the code further, if you are at all interested. You write the code in VB and I'll use C , and see which code would be the fastest. Of course you have. They are not managed and are not particulary secure. They are also both very primitive. They may run faster If I need to speed up the program, I write the critical section in C. Using C and Assembly, I can code critical sections to run up to times faster than managed code. I see no difference between coding in VB.
Net and C. I'm just more comfortable coding in VB. When I time VB. Net and C code of the same function, I get approximately the same time to run the function in either language. I agree with everything John said. I've written thousands and thousands of lines in assembler, on mainframes. I don't like the Intel instruction set. But in my experience, I've noticed that if you have a DLL interface, to that fast code, the interface and context switching will slow you way down.
So if you are going to do something in a DLL, design it so that do most of your repitive processing in the dll. Because calling a DLL over and over again will slow you down. For the last thirty years there has been a debate as to whether humans can write faster code than a good optimizing compiler. I believe in the long run we can't and that we will lose out to a good compiler.
At DEC our high level system implementation language had a seven pass compiler. It produced rather incredible optimized code. I understand that that the Microsoft compilers are two pass compliers and the claim is that you can get all the optimization you need in two passes. I remain in the question about that. Why learn a case sensitive language? Why learn a meat and potatoes language. I've ways thought C should be outlawed.
The code speed has nothing to do with the language - it is the implementation, which counts. The language, which is slow today, may be fast tomorrow. For example, I have compiled exactly the same code in Turbo Pascal and Free Pascal and the Free Pascal code runs approximately three times faster!
Also, it is not a law of nature that VB is always managed. This is just the way Microsoft has chosen to do it. Intel has a very good Fortran 95 compiler, which integrates directly in the. I will probably try this for programming drivers in the future.
I think that it is important to choose a language, which is as easy to overlook as possible, because the limiting factor is the human brain. Even the most cryptic language may be compiled, but if you cannot overlook what you are doing, there may be dozens of logical errors in the program meaning low reliability.
Just look at Windows XP and Vista. They are programmed in C. Are you impressed by the safety and speed? I am not! Maybe a language with better readability could have reduced the number of safety holes?
It is only if you want to be a professional programmer that you should consider C - simply because there are many more C applications than VB or Fortran Let me suggest the following to the VB team: Why not make it possible to use both VB and Fortran 95 syntax in the next version of the compiler?
The difference is so small that this ought to be quite easy and together we are much stronger and can make a real alternative to the terrible C style languages. Alone, VB will probably never be anything than a pure Microsoft language. Does this compiler cost anything? I'd never use Fortran for a driver I have a hard imagining Fortran in OOP though. How do they deal with Fortran common?
Most people don't realize that member variables are the exact same thing. Did you know there is also a Cil compiler so you can actually write in the Clr Intermeditate language:.
Programs written directly in CIL are just as managed and just as portable as programs written in C. Of course, most. It as actually a pity that there has never been any development in the assembler language. When I program in assembler, all comments are in pseudo high level language and the program is fully structured with e. IF-Else-EndIf constructions. I will try to look at ilasm the next time I am going to do something very time critical.
Me too. The Intel architecture is absolutely awful. That's one of the reasons why I prefer e. You know back in the seventies DEC had assembler macros and the ability to interpret them which provided keywords for structured programming. In case of simple constructions like this, the second syntax could generate exactly the same machine code as the first one.
For example, an Else statement can be replaced with a jump statement followed by a label, and the End If statement can be replaced with a label. This is actually the way I write assembler programs. Now that's assembler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Person A and B are friends and they both got theirs first bikes for christmas. But, after some time both A and B can ride theirs bikes perfectly eventhough they sometimes fall down and get hurt.
But who can say that person A is not as good biker than person B? I couldn't agree with you more. I didn't begin with VB. I began with a flock of much more complex languages, none of which were case-sensitive. I don't like the terseness of C and I don't think I've ever seen a piece of C that I would consider pretty. But I did you what you had to say. I like Evoluator, but he doesn't listen to me and that's been demonstrated many times.
C useds the same framework that VB does. One is not daster than than another. If this language is so good why do i need to download so much else? You just need that extra speed. Visual Basic is and always will be the easier and more fun language to write. VB with the power of directX behind it has become a serious contender for making games. I think that everyone should know both C and VB if they are going to be.
Net programmers. Knowing both and being able to translate between them gives one a greater understanding of the foundations.
If you think about how large a factor. Net plays with C and VB you will likely realize that you will end up spending more energy and time understanding and mastering. Net than you will learning how to translate between C and VB. It is also lot like Java and similar to C and that gives you a good head start into understanding those languages. VB is the "first child" of the MS centric business community.
There are more VB jobs and more lines of existing VB code. This gives you a leg up with employability. My immediate reaction is that there is either something wrong in your performance tests, or you are using some language construct in VB that is really expensive.
I know Evoluator. He has been working on something that is personally top secret and I will predict that he will say he can never show the code. I have surmised the same thing you have.
VB is for beginners just learning to code , creating fast simple apps, and just trying to understand how apps works If you're a touch typist you probably prefer VB. If you're a hunt and peck typist you probably prefer C. I think that is the main difference in choosing one language over the other. Of course you don't want to read the replys, you might learn something. This is true. I used to write viruses for a computer security company. In real life, however, the question is more about how much effort you have to spend before you have an application that performs well enough.
It's a one hour video on VS performance considerations and it was well done. One of the things that this talk does is to enunciate all of the things.
Net is doing behind the scenes. The things. But Johan, I find that board in general very difficult to navigate and although I saw the definition of the problem, I never really saw the outcome although I looked for a while. Could you recapitulate the findings a bit?
But I'm not forgetting that there is no way for you to support your statement about relative performance. You can be so insistent on things that you just don't know about. This seems like a copy of your file system converstaion where you ignored what people were telling you for months. The vb compiler can recognize the end of a statement is at the end of the line. But there is a much more funcdamental error because you are not distinguishing between the cimpilation phase where CIL code is produced and runtime where the the JIT compiler converts CIL in executable code so there are actually two compilers not one as you suppose.
Please evoluator learn what. Net and the system is doing before you make statements like these. What's the point and what am I missing? But this is simple to say, making the compiler faster would be much harder. The reason for this is the language used in VB, because it makes the life of the compiler so hard, for example: How does the compiler knows that the end of the statment is reached, in C ";" is used for this pourpose?
VB is heaven for programmers but hell for compiler developers, because of all the emplicit assumptions and the language could not easily discriminate between statments. But as I allways thought this is to be changed if the Visual Studio team write a great compiler, with much faster code. I agree with ReneeC also in this case. You are completely wrong here. You cannot substitude a bracket construction with anything.
The code was very fast to write and due to IPN the compiler didn't have to bother with brackets, but could generate extremely efficient code directly. There was just one "minor" problem - the code was absolutely impossible to read and understand afterwards! This is because the VB compiler has to deal with some backwards compatibility and some explicit data conversions.
It may also be so that Microsoft has spend more resources on the C compiler than VB, because they needed the C compiler for writing the CLR, but this doesn't change the fact that VB is more readable and therefore will generate more reliable code with less logical errors. The human brain recognizes pictures better than text and text better than symbols, so the ideal programming language is graphical I use that for IC design followed by English test languages like VB and Fortran 95 and the worst is C style.
C code executes fast, but also crashes fast! What do you prefer? I don't think either one of you is distinguishing between the compilation phase whose output is CIL, a kind of. Net pseudocode. At execution time, this platform independent code is converted by the runtime JIT compiler into code executable by a given hardware platform. Language structures are irrelvant at exectution time.
That's the hole in these arguments. Ok fare enought but pesudocodes could be written in different ways, fast, reliable or slow, or even inefficient. So if the. The more I think about it the more I am convinced that your argument; although sound, doesn't falasify both of our arguments. I give you an example:. Close observation of the above examples shows, despit the premisses provided are false, but the conclusion drawn from both of the arguments is sound and classfies as a True statment.
So although there must be a little mistake in an argument but this sololy on its own does not falasify the entire argument.
Therefore ad-hoc arguments are a way to distract the argument from its core contents. I just made a comment on how hard it is for the compiler to handle a language. I completely agree with you that even if the compiler should spend one minute on each code line this has absolutely nothing to do with the execution time.
Just remmeber the second law of thermodynamics, and you see my point. David Halidays [Principle Physics is a good source]. You'll find that NGenning only produces a quicker startup time because the JIT compiler is pretty and once the compiled machine code is in memory Please note that while I do work on the VB team, I'm not on the compiler team itself, but:.
It takes the MSIL, runs optimizations , and generate code appropriate for the current execution environment. Also, the JIT compiler evolves over time, so even if you've carefully examined how well it can optimize a specific code pattern today and modeled your MSIL generating compiler after that, the next version of the JITer may very well break that assumption.
As such, any blanket statements that say language X is faster than language Y, or MSIL code generated by compiler A is faster than code generated by compiler B are, at best, less than useful, and, more likely, simply not true. When it comes to performance you have to measure and analyze. My suspicion, in this case, is that the compiler settings were different between your C and VB tests more specifically, integer overflow checks were on for the VB code and off for C but I can only speculate since I don't have all the information to tell for sure.
If you have a real example of where your C code is faster than VB, you can send it my way and I'll see if I can't get one of our compiler devs to take a quick peek I'm not one to be manhandled in such a sophmoric fashion. This is an exact replay of the filesystem discussion.
You maode incorrect assertions because of a lack of fundamental knowled ge and you've insisted the opposite of what people have been telling you until about six people tell you the same thing.
Perhaps the important thing to know is why the VB and C compilers don't do any optimizations. Those compilers do not have any knowledge of the eventual platform upon which the code is going to execute. The JIT compilers will be platform specific and whatever optimizations are to be done must be done at that locale, not at the level of the VB or C compiler. But from what I am reading here, Carsten and I would do well to apply many of our own optizations because the JIT compiler will be optimizing for a given hardware platform.
Not so much the logic of the program itself. They may use it for wizards and independent components but I doubt they use it in the main body of Office products because most of Office is COM and the two don't mix exquisitely well. I only use C if there is an existing assembly that I need to modify. Anyting new will be in Visual Basic.
As my own personal preference, I like the whole C language a lot better, I think it's easier for me to understand, but that just depends on who it is. Different people like different stuff! I wanted to say a couple of things relating to this thread. Next, I am nowhere near an expert on anything dealing with programming but i do believe that maybe bigger issues are quality and accuracy and not so much speed.
I have seen others talk about creating faster code and i think that is necessary in many cases when you have a lot of code to run. But i think from the developer side of it being able to adapt and change existing code quickly and accurately, VB can give you that.
In today's fast changing business world, being able to change and adapt applications quickly and accurately is probably just as important as how fast your code is. If you were to really know the other languages well then i guess it's about the same. But VB language is written so that we can understand it based on what we have been learning all our lives, Reading and Writing English.
From what i have seen others say and from what i have seen in the code that i write versus what i have seen in C i think the best language seems to be VB. Whether or not the same code will run faster in one language versus the other is beyond me but as far as not learning VB because it is not as fast doesn't seem like the best reason to discard it. And i did want to say that many government agencies use VB for their applications and i have seen many companies advertising for vb.
Inevitably you are going to end up beleiving what you want to believe. You have a demonstrated proclivity to a. You are not prepared to offer a meaningful benchmark.
As to VB, I think JS06 has seen the kinds of things that he does and the kind of things that I do, to know that I am in no way a business programmeer. I have been a systems programmer for thirty years now and was a hardware designer prior to that.
There has always been religiosity around both programming languages and operating systems. For some reason C people seem to be zealots. I am almost equally zealous in my disdain for C, although I can write code in it.
I despise case sensitivity in languages. I think it's an enormous was of time and C is way too terse for me. I think it's pretty ugly. Further more as far as I'm concerned there are only two operating systems as far as I'm concerned. There's VMS and windows. So the fact that whatever code I write will only run on WIndows is a plus as far as I'm concerned. So there is no doubt that if you walk into a room full of C programmers and yell out, "How bout that VB", they will uber predicatably say all the things that you heard about vb.
It's so uniform and predictable that it's almost like a sales script. Unfortunately I agree with you a bit,. Net and all Microsoft products tend to pander to the business segment and I think that's most unfortunate because in a very real way it "bends" computing. This is so clear to me in the nature of the controls and their relationship with databases and it's especially apparent with bindings.
But JS06 will tell you that I have cruscaded to people not to forgo the fundamentals. Jeff is coming into an understanding and appreciation of what I've been saying. So many times evoluator, I've said the same to you. As far as I'm concerned, you could rename this thread, "Why not to listen to Evaluator, because at this time, you don't have the fundamental skills and knowledge to make the critique you are making.
You don't have to ability to recognize another C cult when you see one. You do however, make a fine parrot. VB and. Net are more about accessibility and productivity than about speed and efficiency. Learning any programming language will introduce you to the basic structures found in all modern programming languages.
Anyone who tells you that you are wasting your time is selling some alternate solution. Pascal is not a widely used language, yet it is often used as an introduction to programming.
All are accessible. If you are careful, they can be rather portable and performant, but they are anything but productive and accessible. Having done so, it was only natural to migrate their flagship business programming tool vb to the CRL as well. Does Microsoft want as many people as possible using. Net and the CLR? The question is, What is the most appropriate tool to use when solving any particular problem.
I agree re drivers. If you have Vista and are interested in wireless, I'd be happy to share it with you. VB did it very well.
VB did really well VB continues to be very under rated. Unfortunately, this thread and some others has become a discussion of whom is not listening to whom. I have also been accused of not listening when I didn't agree maybe ReneeC remembers my discussions with SJW and the discussion in the Sleep thread. As an inventor, I also don't like arguments like "This cannot be done" or "I am much older and more experienced than you". Mozart wrote his first compositions when he was only 6 and like js06, I am quite impressed of the knowledge of Evoluator at an age of only 17 although I think that you should not fly so high that you cannot reach the ground.
What has the second law of thermodynamics etc. Shouldn't we keep it technical and face the fact? Evoluator has a program, which runs two times faster if it is written in C than VB. Unfortunately, he cannot publish the program, but why don't believe him?
I think that it is well known that C is slightly faster than VB although the difference is usually not a factor 2. Maybe there are VB constructions, which should be avoided due to very low efficiency like e. Why not be constructive and find these? It is also a fact that. NET and managed code has certainly not made things faster, but this is the price to pay for more easy programming and better safety. Actually, why should we learn C? My, probably flawed, analogy would be that you observed two cars at a traffic light, and when the light turned green, one car accelerated faster.
From that, you drew the conclusion that the faster car's tires have better traction, and those tires should be used when you want a fast car. In the performance analyzis that you presented, you did not dig deep enough into the problem to determine what the problem was.
I still contend that the most likely explanation for the performance gap is that you did not use the correct compiler settings for the VB implementation to make it an apples-to-apples comparison. More specifically, I believe that you used integer overflow checks for the VB implementation and didn't do so in the C implementation. I think there are too many things that can affect whether one language is faster than another.
When i think about this sort of thing i remember something i saw here in the forum that said "Follow the one who looks for the answer. By Priya Pedamkar. C is a general and modern object-oriented programming OOP language provided by Microsoft that runs on.
Net Framework. Net platform. C is expected to make it run faster to get new products with good quality and stable services to the market. NET is pronounced as Visual Basic. Net, and it is an object-oriented programming language that is implemented on. NET Framework by Microsoft. One of the good features is that the VB. By using the C programming language, different types of secured and robust applications can be developed.
Software giant Microsoft develops this programming language in the year , and it is the C family. The main aim of designing the C programming language is to provide information exchange and services over the Web service and enable developers to build robust portable applications.
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